The proposition was put forth that “time statements” found in Revelation demand that the second coming and the resurrection were to take place “soon” in time. The Full/Hyper Preterist declares the time statements as the evidence that all these things were going to take place in that generation. The true scholar does not depend on trite sayings to prove their position but presents the evidence in a clear insightful manner using the established rules of Hermeneutics. Meaning it must be proven as to what is a “timing statement.”
The rules for proper interpretation begin with the meaning of words, context, grammar, genre, and historical context etc etc. The same rules the FP cast aside and those who are gullible enough to follow the FP teachings never understand why that is a such problem that tarnishes the whole paradigm. Their declaration of time statement over and against the nature statements, becomes the first demonstration of a major failing by ignoring the grammatical rules of interpretation.
It seems to me to have a clear-cut understanding that adverbs are used to describe verbs, to inform the reader of how the action takes place. (Adjectives describe nouns.) My reply,
“Your arguing for a translation of a Greek word which can be used several ways and the most common is an adverb… adverb tells how the action is happening. “I run slowly (adverb) to the store tells me how I run to the store not when.. “so I am coming quickly” does not tell me when – it tells me how he is coming. He is coming quickly, without warning which implies then I should be ready at any point in time for his coming.”
In response we are told, “aagh nonsense” so again demonstrates the irrational case of the FP. They are unable to prove why the above argument is wrong. They simply declare it to be “nonsense.”
But let say for just one minute that the His second appearing was to take place soon, what is the historical record, and what does the bible teach is the nature of these events.
Concerning the events of AD 70, Eusebius declared that the saints all fled Jerusalem to Pella. (Church History Book 3.5.3) That Josephus gives an accurate account of events that took place during the siege of Jerusalem, and the actual assignments of succession among the churches. Then begins in chapter 17 The persecution under Domitian.
When Eusebius records a direct quote it is a simple demonstration of proof to go to the books from which he quotes that are still extant today and read them directly to see if he quotes them correctly. When all comparison is made upon his whole body of works, we have no cause or evidence that Eusebius either misquoted or manufactured quotes. We have no evidence to dismiss claims made by him concerning the history he records or the events that took place as they were also established as fact by other writers and historians. Historical facts are not to be construed with doctrines or theology as the one relays things that took place while the other is what others believed about God and the bible.
He begins chapter 18 with,
It is said that in this persecution the apostle and evangelist John, who was still alive, was condemned to dwell on the island of Patmos in consequence of his testimony to the divine word.
Eusebius then goes on to quote Irenaeus where he stated that it was during this time that John was on the island of Patmos. The following dialogue from Eusebius sets a precedent for the late dating of Revelation. Yet of course Eusebius was written about three hundred years after the facts so he relies on the testimony of men who were living in or close to those events.
So what did Christians have to say closer to AD 70?
The Didache, which is stated to be the oldest document of the church was written during this time, approximately 75-100 AD. It states,
First, the sign of an outspreading in heaven; then the sign of the sound of the trumpet; and the third, the resurrection of the dead; yet not of all, but as it is said: The Lord shall come and all His saints with Him. Then shall the world see the Lord coming upon the clouds of heaven. (Didache Chp 16.)
Barnabas, who wrote a letter during this same period of time stated his belief in the temple’s destruction was fulfilled according to the prophecy.
It has so happened. For through their going to war, it was destroyed by their enemies; and now: they, as the servants of their enemies, shall rebuild it. Again, it was revealed that the city and the temple and the people of Israel were to be given up. For the Scripture says, And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the Lord will deliver up the sheep of His pasture, and their sheepfold and tower, to destruction. And it so happened as the Lord had spoken.
Yet in the next breath,
This means when His Son, coming [again], shall destroy the time of the wicked man, and judge the ungodly, and change the-sun, and the moon, and the stars, then shall He truly rest on the seventh day.
And Eusebius,
We will not, however, incur the risk of pronouncing positively as to the name of Antichrist; for if it were necessary that his name should be distinctly revealed in this present time, it would have been announced by him who beheld the apocalyptic vision. For that was seen no very long time since, but almost in our day, towards the end of Domitian’s reign.
so neither has his name been declared, for the name of that which does not exist is not proclaimed. But when this Antichrist shall have devastated all things in this world, he will reign for three years and six months, and sit in the temple at Jerusalem; and then the Lord will come from heaven in the clouds, in the glory of the Father, sending this man and those who follow him into the lake of fire;
These all confessed the future return of Jesus. Not to even mention that John himself lived to about AD 96-98 and it would seem incredulous that he would never have written that Christ came and appeared to the churches in Asia in AD 70. From the traditions of the church, the Apostles Creed,
and is seated at the right hand of God the Father almighty. From there he will come to judge the living and the dead. Tthe resurrection of the body, and life everlasting.
The Nicene Creed as approved by Eusebius,
He will come again with glory, to judge the living and the dead. His kingdom will never end…. We look forward to the resurrection of the dead, and to life in the world to come. Amen.
So all of the testimony concerning what the church believed in pointed to the future return of Christ. Not one affirmed that AD 70 was the second coming. There is not one statement that the second appearing took place, physically or spiritually.
Now concerning the nature of the Second Appearing and the resurrection, the bible itself teaches (A) Christ himself will come from out of heaven. (B) He will appear at his coming.
A.
- Zech 14:4 On that day his feet shall stand on the Mount of Olives that lies before Jerusalem on the east. … Then the LORD my God will come, and all the holy ones with him.
- 1 Thess 3:13 at the coming of our Lord Jesus with all his saints.
- Acts 1: This Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven.”
- I Thess 4:16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven.
- Rev 19.
B.
- 2 Thess 2:8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will kill with the breath of his mouth and bring to nothing by the appearance of his coming.
- 1 Tim 6:14 until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ,
- 2 Tim 4:1 who is to judge the living and the dead, and by his appearing and his kingdom:
- 2 Tim 4:8 Henceforth there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, will award to me on that day, and not only to me but also to all who have loved his appearing.
- Titus 2:13 waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,
- I John 2:28 And now, little children, abide in him, so that when he appears we may have confidence and not shrink from him in shame at his coming.
- I John 3:2 but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, because we shall see him as he is.
So the Bible teaches the visible manifestation of Christ at his coming, the physical bodily resurrection of the dead. (I Thess 4, I Cor 15) It is the very words, “anastasis nekron” that declares the bodily resurrection as the Greek words mean, “the standing again of a lifeless corpse.”
Then the Bible teaches that at his coming the saints who are alive will be changed and made immortal and imperishable, then to be caught up with the dead who were raised. And yet people do not think it oddly strange that the men of faith down through the ages all taught the same things and testified to these facts and beliefs. Then you have a few handful of men who came almost two thousand years later and claim they were all wrong and yet do not even have one shred of evidence to prove the proposition. They simply ask us to rely upon their interpretations that are completely void of proper hermeneutics.
It is the hallmark of the cults to declare everyone else was wrong but them, that they alone have the truth. Who should we believe about the facts of what happened in AD 70 when not even Josephus claimed the second coming took place?
Why are men such as Preston correct over and against men who actually spoke Greek as a language along with Latin and or Aramaic? Who lived in the days of vengeance and saw these events unfold?
“Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.”
Following is a lengthy list of quotes from many respected men of faith and integrity who argued for the bodily resurrection and the refutation to objections made in their day against bodily resurrection and the same made by FP in our day. The evidence presented is that they did believe in a bodily resurrection and used scriptures to prove their points.
So let me summarize before you read on
1. The Bible teaches a visible return of Christ. The ECF all believed in a future bodily visible return of Christ.
2. The church declared the bodily resurrection of the saints. The ECF taught bodily Resurrection.
Against this claim no FP has any contradictory evidence. Full Preterism teaches that both propositions are untrue, using invented hermeneutics, and changing the meaning of words. FP was created in the 1970 by two men and passed on to others who also believed that they arrived at the truth that the church had missed for 2000 years, That Christ returned in AD 70.
What did the ECF teach, The future coming of Christ and the bodily resurrection of the saints.
Irenaeus,
it is manifest that the souls of His disciples also, upon whose account the Lord underwent these things, shall go away into the invisible place allotted to them by God, and there remain until the resurrection, awaiting that event; then receiving their bodies, and rising in their entirety, that is bodily, just as the Lord arose, they shall come thus into the presence of God… so ought we also to await the time of our resurrection prescribed by God and foretold by the prophets, and so, rising, be taken up, as many as the Lord shall account worthy of this [privilege]. (Irenaeus 5.31)
Athenagores
Moreover, that His power is sufficient for the raising of dead bodies, is shown by the creation of these same bodies. For if, when they did not exist, He made at their first formation the bodies of men, and their original elements, He will, when they are dissolved, in whatever manner that may take place, raise them again with equal ease: for this, too, is equally possible to Him.
that same power can reunite what is dissolved, and raise up what is prostrate, and restore the dead to life again, and put the corruptible into a state of incorruption. And to the same Being it will belong, and to the same power and skill, to separate that which has been broken up and distributed among a multitude of animals of all kinds which are wont to have recourse to such bodies, and glut their appetite upon them.
These persons, to wit, say that many bodies of those who have come to an unhappy death in shipwrecks and rivers have become food for fishes, and many of those who perish in war, or who from some other sad cause or state of things are deprived of burial, lie exposed to become the food of any animals which may chance to light upon them. Since, then, bodies are thus consumed, and the members and parts composing them are broken up and distributed among a great multitude of animals, and by means of nutrition become incorporated with the bodies of those that are nourished by them
Augustine of Hippo
We believe also the resurrection of the flesh, which went before in Christ: that the body too may have hope of that which went before in its Head.
Clement
soon and suddenly shall His will be accomplished, as the Scripture also bears witness, saying, Speedily will He come, and will not tarry; and, The Lord shall suddenly come to His temple, even the Holy One, for whom you look. Malachi 3:1.
For [the Scripture] says in a certain place, You shall raise me up, and I shall confess unto You; and again, I laid me down, and slept; I awoke, because You are with me; and again, Job says, You shall raise up this flesh of mine, which has suffered all these things. Job 19:25-26
Justin Martyr
They who maintain the wrong opinion say that there is no resurrection of the flesh; giving as their reason that it is impossible that what is corrupted and dissolved should be restored to the same as it had been. And besides the impossibility, they say that the salvation of the flesh is disadvantageous; and they abuse the flesh, adducing its infirmities, and declare that it only is the cause of our sins, so that if the flesh, say they, rise again, our infirmities also rise with it.
First, then, in respect of those who say that it is impossible for God to raise it, it seems to me that I should show that they are ignorant, professing as they do in word that they are believers, yet by their works proving themselves to be unbelieving, even more unbelieving than the unbelievers.
It is evident, therefore, that man made in the image of God was of flesh. Is it not, then, absurd to say, that the flesh made by God in His own image is contemptible, and worth nothing? But that the flesh is with God a precious possession is manifest, first from its being formed by Him, if at least the image is valuable to the former and artist; and besides, its value can be gathered from the creation of the rest of the world. For that on account of which the rest is made, is the most precious of all to the maker.
And when they were by every kind of proof persuaded that it was Himself, and in the body, they asked Him to eat with them, that they might thus still more accurately ascertain that He had in verity risen bodily; and He ate honey-comb and fish. And when He had thus shown them that there is truly a resurrection of the flesh, wishing to show them this also, that it is not impossible for flesh to ascend into heaven (as He had said that our dwelling-place is in heaven), He was taken up into heaven while they beheld, Acts 1:9 as He was in the flesh. If, therefore, after all that has been said, any one demand demonstration of the resurrection, he is in no respect different from the Sadducees, since the resurrection of the flesh is the power of God, and, being above all reasoning, is established by faith, and seen in works.
The resurrection is a resurrection of the flesh which died. For the spirit dies not; the soul is in the body, and without a soul it cannot live. The body, when the soul forsakes it, is not. For the body is the house of the soul; and the soul the house of the spirit. These three, in all those who cherish a sincere hope and unquestioning faith in God, will be saved. Considering, therefore, even such arguments as are suited to this world, and finding that, even according to them, it is not impossible that the flesh be regenerated; and seeing that, besides all these proofs, the Saviour in the whole Gospel shows that there is salvation for the flesh,
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